			    TRAVELLER Digest 131

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Kinetic Energy and Spaceflight	by "CUBI/D. GOLDEN" <GOLDEND@smc-det10.afaa-net.af.mil>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 130	by erich@bush.cs.tamu.edu (Erich Schneider)
  3) Comp Game	by "Peter H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
  4) TRAVELLER digest 130	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com>
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 130	by merrick@RT66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  6) Re: Kinetic Energy and Spaceflight	by merrick@RT66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  7) Re: Alien Generation	by Shalom Zaidfeld <cs911408@red.ariel.cs.yorku.ca>
  8) Re: Kinetic Kill Wpns and Armour	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
  9) Re: Kinetic Kill Wpns and Armour	by merrick@RT66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 10) Traveller Computer Games	by bvanbra@bvemx.ppco.com
 11) Striker II	by James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
 12) Micrometeors and danger to ships	by Derek Smith <Derek_Smith.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
 13) Re: Micrometeors and danger to ships	by merrick@RT66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 14) Re: Micrometeors and danger to ships	by Derek Smith <Derek_Smith.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 94 13:50:00 PST
From: "CUBI/D. GOLDEN" <GOLDEND@smc-det10.afaa-net.af.mil>
To: "traveller" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Kinetic Energy and Spaceflight
Message-ID: <199412132154.QAA02415@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

--- BMO MAIL BRIDGE: HIGGINS > VAX (1213134508) ---
From:    GOLDEND@951_2@EXCH900
Subject: Kinetic Energy and Spaceflight
To:      traveller@mpgn.com
---------------------------------------------------

                               - - Mail - - 
         December 13, 1994     1:43pm    
   FROM: CAPT D GOLDEN/CUBI              
     TO: TML                             
SUBJECT: Kinetic Energy and Spaceflight  
   COPY: CAPT D GOLDEN/CUBI


>The BL rules don't reflect reality.  If this is so *don't exceed 3
>hexes/turn.*  Ever. (and below that you'll have your surface features
>degraded at a decent clip.

    I won't argue about reflecting reality in general. In what way specific to
this problem don't they reflect reality? The idea of a problem with debris 
impacts is something that is very realistic. The shuttle has had problems with
objects as small as a fleck of paint. I believe they had to replace a window 
over that. And remember LDEF, the Long-Duration Exposure Flight test? And 
neither of their speeds were that high, compared to interplanetary transfers.

>Why is min armor max g burn times 10?  It shouldn't even be related to
>acceleration, but rather the max velocity of the craft.

    This certainly makes sense. But then, how do you define the max velocity 
of a spacecraft? Total delta-v? Who's going to use all his fuel accelerating 
and then not being able to stop? And what about orbital dynamics. A ship's 
speed at perigee can be significantly higher than its speed at apogee. 
Especially for a hyperbolic orbit.

    Anyway, my understanding of the min armor was that it was based more on 
structural strength required. And for that, a linear relationship to max 
acceleration is a good first-order approximation.

    As for any problems in the rules with missiles, I haven't had the chance 
to play enough to address that. The one time I played, I had no trouble at
all
shooting missiles down several hexes away.

    Looking forward to hearing more ideas on this subject. Especially since I

have this nagging feeling I'm not really hearing what you're trying to say.

        +-------------------------------------------------+
        | David J. Golden                                 |
        |    Home: D.GOLDEN@genie.geis.com                |
        |    Work: GOLDEND@smc-det10.afaa-net.af.mil      |
        |                                                 |
        | "My employer is unaware I even have these       |
        | opinions, and does not condone or support them" |
        +-------------------------------------------------+

PS: What's the rule of thumb for converting Joules into damage value and 
penetration?


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Dec 94 15:55:32 CST
From: erich@bush.cs.tamu.edu (Erich Schneider)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 130
Message-ID: <9412132155.AA26340@ bush.cs.tamu.edu>

>The basic assumtions are flawed.  Why is min armor max g burn times
>10?  It shouldn't even be related to acceleration, but rather the max
>velocity of the craft.

"Max velocity"? What is this "max velocity"? When I turn the engines
on, I fall toward them, but when I turn them off, I'm just floating
there at zero velocity. Now, "maximum velocity relative to <thing>" I
can relate to. No pun intended. In any case, it makes no sense to say
"ship X has a maximum velocity of Y hexes/turn"; it does make sense,
though, to say "if ship X is struck by an object appearing to move Y
hexes/turn, the crew had better have their vacc suits on".

Surely in order to withstand a given acceleration level, a certain
minimum internal structural strength is required, or the ship crumples
like a tin can. 

Also, do any BL/BR players out there chuck this ridiculous "12
movement directions, no exceptions" thing and just use the Mayday
system? I know I certainly would. (For those not in the know, in
Mayday one used three counters per ship to record position last turn,
position this turn, and position next turn. Acceleration was then
simply a matter of moving one's "position next turn" within the
limits; every turn, all ships would move their last turn markers to
the current pos'n, the current pos'n to the next turn pos'n, and then
extrapolate linearly the new next turn pos'n.)

-- 
Erich Schneider  erich@bush.cs.tamu.edu http://tamsun.tamu.edu/~ers0925

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 16:17:55 -0600
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Comp Game
Message-ID: <199412132217.QAA25727@cummings.uchicago.edu>


Marco was asking about traveller as a computer game.

Megatraveller and Megatraveller II were released several (3?) years
ago.  This is what I can remember of MEgatraveller I.  I disliked the
interface of Megatraveller II so I never bought it (I borrowed it to 
try it out).

Basically Megatraveller was an adventure game where you (and your party
of four (?) characters of various abilities) fly your 
steadily improving (by your hard-earned investment) vessel from planet 
to planet (there were dozens of
varying degrees of interest) interacting with the natives (occasionally
violently) and with other spacecraft (usually violently).  

Through either trading prowess or piracy you eventually acquire what you
need (sorry...no spoilers-it was awhile ago) and "finish" the adventure.
Not a bad game, but don't expect the pleasure of a "real" traveller
refereed adventure.  Computer games can't (yet) approximate the 
possibilities of a human imagination.

Another, similar game (if you like the genre) is Sentinel Worlds I.  The 
format is basically the same, but a bit more monotonous (and harder to
finish).  That game came out in the late 1980's (87-88?).

Megatraveller had the "feel" of traveller (especially the character
generation.
In fact, you could generate and print characters in either I or II for use 
with the RPG), but the game retained playability despite the obvious pruning
required to make it a computer game.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 94 17:33:38 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 130
Message-ID: <941213223338_100326.446_BHG113-2@CompuServe.COM>

Re: Foreven
 
 
>>Thus, GDW set up a Chaosium style 'Blank Land' on the borders of the
Imperium/Regency.<<
 
They'd better leave it alone! Ace and The Dog have spent over a year writing
the damn place up and I don't want to be "gregged" (shall we explain that
?). Even if GDW do renege and detail it, I think it'll be a long time before
they turn attention to it.
 
Of course, it's far enough out to perhaps have missed the worst of Virus.
Can anyone spell "invading army" and "fourth Imperium"?



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 16:31:46 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@RT66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 130
Message-ID: <9412132331.AA29109@RT66.com>

> 
> >The basic assumtions are flawed.  Why is min armor max g burn times
> >10?  It shouldn't even be related to acceleration, but rather the max
> >velocity of the craft.
> 
> "Max velocity"? What is this "max velocity"? When I turn the engines
> on, I fall toward them, but when I turn them off, I'm just floating
> there at zero velocity. Now, "maximum velocity relative to <thing>" I

Huh?  The absolute maximum velocity (plus small changes if you use a 
a gravity slingshot (though at traveller ship velocities this won't add
much))
*is* the number of g-turns of fuel a ship has.  Period.  If you have 112
g-turns, the ships max velocity is 112 hexes/turn (6.72 Mkm/hr).  If it
would like to come to a stop at some point, the max velocity it can reach is
half that.  I take it when you say "i fall towards them" you talk about the 
passenger *in* the craft.  Your relative velocity to the hull is zero (unless
you push off to go down the hall), but you would still have some velocity 
(whatever the ship has).  

> can relate to. No pun intended. In any case, it makes no sense to say
> "ship X has a maximum velocity of Y hexes/turn"; it does make sense,

Of couse it does.  The total Delta V of the ship is its fuel in g-turns
(delta
v in hexes per turn in this case).

> though, to say "if ship X is struck by an object appearing to move Y
> hexes/turn, the crew had better have their vacc suits on".
> 
> Surely in order to withstand a given acceleration level, a certain
> minimum internal structural strength is required, or the ship crumples
> like a tin can. 

True enough, acceleration will determine the *force* on the hull.  But
*armor*
isn't internal structure.

> Also, do any BL/BR players out there chuck this ridiculous "12
> movement directions, no exceptions" thing and just use the Mayday
> system? I know I certainly would. (For those not in the know, in

We always use the mayday system.

> Erich Schneider  erich@bush.cs.tamu.edu http://tamsun.tamu.edu/~ers0925


-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 16:53:33 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@RT66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Kinetic Energy and Spaceflight
Message-ID: <9412132353.AA00554@RT66.com>

> >The BL rules don't reflect reality.  If this is so *don't exceed 3
> >hexes/turn.*  Ever. (and below that you'll have your surface features
> >degraded at a decent clip.
> 
>     I won't argue about reflecting reality in general. In what way specific
to
> this problem don't they reflect reality? The idea of a problem with debris 
> impacts is something that is very realistic. The shuttle has had problems
with
> objects as small as a fleck of paint. I believe they had to replace a
window 
> over that. And remember LDEF, the Long-Duration Exposure Flight test? And 
> neither of their speeds were that high, compared to interplanetary
transfers.

Exactly.  But if ships can't move faster than 120,000 km/hr, then what does
that
do to the traveller universe (which predates BL)?  Why are the ships provided
not corrected for this reality if this is really the case?  The bottom line
is 
no one thought of it (otherwise the rules on travel times, etc would say "by 
the way, going faster than X is dangerous")

> >Why is min armor max g burn times 10?  It shouldn't even be related to
> >acceleration, but rather the max velocity of the craft.
> 
>     This certainly makes sense. But then, how do you define the max
velocity 
> of a spacecraft? Total delta-v? Who's going to use all his fuel
accelerating 

I was defining it as maneuver fuel (in g-turns) divided by 4.  This is going
to
be arbitrary (although 1/2 fuel might be better---up to max, then decel).

> and then not being able to stop? And what about orbital dynamics. A ship's 
> speed at perigee can be significantly higher than its speed at apogee. 
> Especially for a hyperbolic orbit.

True enough, but traveller ships can already easily reach system escape
velocity
so I don't think it'd matter too much.  My rules changes are very simple:

*Bonded Super Dense armor (or better) is qualitatively better than other 
materials.  Lesser materials have reduced penetration against it.*

It removes having to worry about space garbage (except big stuff added now
and
then as a plot device :)

>     Anyway, my understanding of the min armor was that it was based more on

> structural strength required. And for that, a linear relationship to max 
> acceleration is a good first-order approximation.

May well be, I thought that was what internal structure was for, but FFS
isn't
always all that clear. :-/

>     As for any problems in the rules with missiles, I haven't had the
chance 
> to play enough to address that. The one time I played, I had no trouble at
all
> shooting missiles down several hexes away.

Really?  Even with a crack crew, and range 16 AEMS, the base diff level to 
detect a TL15 controlled missile is Form (35% will be detected), and vs. a
TL14 SIM it's Imp (only 15% will be detected).  If you lock 'em they're dead,
but you'll only get one try at this range band.  Bottom line is most get 
a whack at you.

>     Looking forward to hearing more ideas on this subject. Especially since
I 
> have this nagging feeling I'm not really hearing what you're trying to say.

I frequently have that problem :)  I always liked the techie side of things, 
so this is really fun for me.  Besides, I want any changes our group makes to
make sense, so it helps to bounce the ideas off others.


>         | David J. Golden                                 |

	-Merrick

> PS: What's the rule of thumb for converting Joules into damage value and 
> penetration?

The basic damage value is Sqrt(Joules)/15.  The Pen ratings are done with a 
table in FFS.  


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 23:15:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Shalom Zaidfeld <cs911408@red.ariel.cs.yorku.ca>
To: TNE Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Alien Generation
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.941213231410.23908A-100000@blue>

On Tue, 13 Dec 1994, Hugh Foster wrote:

> >Does anyone know if there is an alien race generation system out there?
>  
> There was one in White Dwarf many years ago, (pre-Imperium, pre-High
> Guard!) but I've never used it. More on external appearance than culture as
> I recall. I'll post it if anyone wants.

Please do.  It would be nice to see it.

Thanks

	-Shalom Zaidfeld


------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 1994 04:15:59 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Wpns and Armour
Message-ID: <199412140529.AAA09731@noc.tor.hookup.net>

There were several design decisions made with FFS (and BL).  Some were
'merely' for playability.  The best example of this is blinding with lasers:
this doesn't appear in the rules, not because it's impossible (all too
likely), but because it doesn't make interesting role-playing.  (Flash one
laser and all enemy looking in the wrong direction are blind.  Even filters
can't defend against multi-frequency lasers.)

Another example is the calculation of acceleration.  To be truly accurate,
you must use mass, not volume.  (I belaboured this point long and hard when
FFS was being written, believe me.)  GDW decided that volume made easier
calculations, that not many people would care about the difference, and that
those that did would change the rules anyway.  I played around with their
numbers, and volume actually _does_ make a reasonable approximation,
providing that the ship isn't too dense.  

So, if you don't like a rule change it.  No problem.  But, when you post your
designs, _please_ mention what rules changes you're using.  This makes it
much easier for the rest of us to decide how to use them.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 00:37:09 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@RT66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Wpns and Armour
Message-ID: <9412140737.AA28010@RT66.com>

<<good stuff by unknow person deleted>
> 
> So, if you don't like a rule change it.  No problem.  But, when you post your
> designs, _please_ mention what rules changes you're using.  This makes it
> much easier for the rest of us to decide how to use them.

Will do.  I have been bashing the BL/FFS rules for a while since I got them, 
I'm still cleaning up our house rules and wanted so external input.  I really
like BL or I'd just use something else---its flaws are easy to fix so I thought
I'd just do that.

One quick note Re: "changing" the way the armor works.  If micro-meteorites were
a major problem facing spacecraft it would've been mentioned in the BL, FFS 
rules, or in the design notes in Challenge 71.  Since no problems were
mentioned
I think it is reasonable to assume that spacecraft armor is supposed to
protect
them, so if it doesn't, then I assume it was simply a minor oversight on the 
part of the designers (FFS was a rather major undertaking not to miss
anything).

I have a tendency to think better in dialogue rather than monologue... as a 
result I end up having to restate things to get the idea I'm after across.

Regards,
	Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 01:33:58 -0600
From: bvanbra@bvemx.ppco.com
To: "SMTPMAIL-TRAVELLE (052)" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Traveller Computer Games
Message-ID: <0011200001052681000002*@MHS>

To: TRAVELLE--SMTPMAIL
 
From: Bart Van Brabant-Phillips Petroleum Int. AG
     355 Brusselsesteenweg 3090 Overijse Belgium
     Tel: 32-2-6891375 Fax: 32-2-6891472
Subject: Traveller Computer Games
 
Hello,
 
I noticed somewhere in the traveller script, a question about Traveller
compute
r games. There exist two versions of a Mega Traveller game out on PC, called
Megatraveller I and Megatraveller II (return of the ancients or something
like
this).
 
Character generation of this game seems to be good, but the game itself is
too
easy and you do not get quality for your money. I used the
charactergeneration
of this program to produce NPC's for my SF campaigns and my fiction worlds of
Quasar.
 
I hope this helped a bit. When I am used to this editor, I try to include the
reference of the person asking the Question.
 
Bart Van Brabant
Information Systems Analyst
& Major Megatraveller Fan
 
-- I cannot speak about TNE for I haven't found it yet in de Belgian shops.
 
-( Only great wisdom can rule great Power )-
 
X400: C=US,A=ATTMAIL,P=PHILLIPS66,OU1=P66,S=VAN BRABANT,G=BART
Internet Address:bvanbra@ppco.com
USPPC7XC@IBMMAIL
NNNN

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Dec 94 00:05:27 PST
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Striker II
Message-ID: <9412140805.AA22507@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

Striker II is not on the 1995 release schedule because it is (according to
Loren via GEnie) now in GDW's warehouse, to be shipped in 1994...

James Kundert <j.kundert@genie.geis.com>
              <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 94 12:07:11 ES
From: Derek Smith <Derek_Smith.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Micrometeors and danger to ships
Message-ID: <9412141656.AA17721@internet1.lotus.com>

I've been looking at this discussion and thinking
that maybe something like electrostatic armor
is perfect for just this sort of thing.  No idea 
if powering it is feasible for something the size 
of a starship, but hey.  8^)

Thoughts?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Smith - Lotus Development Corporation - Release Engineering

"Thou shalt maintain thy airspeed, lest the ground arise and 
smite thee."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 10:28:08 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@RT66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Micrometeors and danger to ships
Message-ID: <9412141728.AA22490@RT66.com>

> I've been looking at this discussion and thinking
> that maybe something like electrostatic armor
> is perfect for just this sort of thing.  No idea 
>
> Derek Smith - Lotus Development Corporation - Release Engineering

Hmm, good idea, I forgot about ES Armor (I've just been designing ships :)

Might work.  All my group wants is not to have to worry so much about it, so
we'd settle for any reasonable hand-waving that will discount it :)

The idea that silica, Fe, or whatever expends its KE some other way than
penetration was all my BSD fudge was about any way.  Maybe we could use
gravtics since it is the traveller waving hand of choice :)

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 94 13:59:02 ES
From: Derek Smith <Derek_Smith.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Micrometeors and danger to ships
Message-ID: <9412141848.AA21064@internet1.lotus.com>

Finally!  Someone liked one of my ideas!  (ESA to protect against
micrometeors and stuff...)

Merrick said:
>Maybe we could use gravtics since it is the traveller waving hand of
>choice :)

That would work, too.  But figuring out power requirements would
be sort of arbitrary.

I agree about the "waving hand of choice" re: gravitics.

Should we nominate GDW for the "Smoke and Mirrors" award?


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Smith - Lotus Development Corporation - Release Engineering

I once told Fordie [Ford Maddox Ford] that if he were placed 
naked and alone in a room without furniture, I would come back 
in an hour and find total confusion.

                                    --Ezra Pound (1885-1972)

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 131
***************************
